...is more than one person.  You have succeeded in your effort to drive traffic to your site.  Now, please be nice.

It is sad to see a good source of open ideas and dialoge become as hateful and bitter as our community. And Winter is only half-way over... I predict by the end of March everyone in NEO will be eating their young.

If this is the best we can do as a community, send in the Cleveland Foundation troops, bulldoze the fuck out of this palce, bury the people, and make this a forest - this is all undeserving of any good effort on top of all the bad.

Think about the community you want and if you even belong there... all of you. 

Disrupt IT

don't paint all REALNEO participants with a broad brush.

Are you suggesting censorship?

Tim, honey... I dont want to do a "you started it" ..."no you started it", but the phrase "you can dish it out but you cant take it" dOEs ring in my ears right now....

just let it wash over.

bye - bye

I just posted something similar on Facebook in response to Adam Harvey halting Tremonter.com.

Why is it that we all have to group-wise resort to this "lowest common denominator?"

I say crap or what I feel because of my first amendment rights... sometimes it's dead on... sometiems its bull... sometimes it generates thought... sometimes it just is... sometimes I piss people off... sometimes I'm just plain stupid... but it's my opinion and I stick to my opinions based on the facts I see and experience... not personally blasting people for the heck/fun/sport of it.

I never, however, refuse to attach my name to what I have to say... even when it means I could have a price to pay for my opinion, stupidity, or momentary lapse of reason.  That's where responsibility plays.  I am proud of what I have to say.. even if no one agrees with it.  Even if it is dumb and way off the mark.  I'm willing to accept I have my moments.  I'm willing to accept that you will have yours..  I am willing to accept that we can all agree to disagree - or sit in our mutually exclusive corners.  I'm still going to learn something from you if we disagree right.

I do, however, expect that when I offer up my words, my Freedom of Speech comes with RESPONSIBILITY.  I've recanted, apologized, and accepted the same and moved on without judgement.  I think in the previous paragraph I've explained my slant on the term RESPONSIBILITY.

Further,

Why is it that we have to abuse the internet with our crap hidden in "anonymity."  Which I'll be the first to tell you.. in today's day and age... you think you are anonymous... but there are a whole host of hackers and administrators, and flat out grammar queens and bored teenagers who can call you out in a second. And because they don't?  You have only their principle over matter to thank... or their general boredom in the lack of challenge in the game.

So, when you keep changing your userid to "get one up up" or hide your mean, nasty or down right vicious comments behind some "they won't get it's me" userid

remember this...

someone out there knows exactly who you are and where your comments originate...

That's the beauty of today's internet.  Or, it's demise...

So, do you want to keep playing mean?  Or use the tool to better our society and raise the level to a higher bar???

...They/We know who you are...

Let's get on a better bandwagon and work together.  If we are bantering here... we are on the same team... anyway you look at it...

Des, you really hit the ball out of the park. I think your BBS hearing is in the morning? I wanted to come but have a conflict with a appointment for my Mother.

But I spoke with Chuck Hoven, he will try to get their by 9:30. I hope things work out well, I think they will.

Please take the time to let us know how they handle this.

Henry

I have a blog. It's for me to rant all i want about who i want. http://erieeffusion.blogspot.com/

When I guest blog here on Real Neo, my joblog or elsewhere, I tend (try? ) to mind my manners out of respect for the community that provides me with an opportunity to post some art events in NEO. Out of respect for Norm and his site, my presence here is not to create more negativity in Cleveland ( oh because I CAN ) but to create a more positive awareness of what's left. I posted with the intent to do good, not to tear down. I enjoy healthy political/professional criticism of Norm and Roldo, but the personal attacks are slambook stupid  To find others using this site to advance their own personal ragealcohalic insanity, will just convince me to cease posting until the weirdness works itself out.

 Thanks Paul

http://www.woio.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?ClipID1=3407325&h1=Is%20an%20Urban%20Farming%20a%20Good%20Idea%20For%20City%20of%20Cleveland%3F&vt1=v&at1=News&d1=104767&LaunchPageAdTag=Homepage&activePane=info&rnd=41317794

  The choice we all have, especially when dealing with some one who will not identify themselves by name. Globawl, instead of focusing on the gang of four you name here, why not post counter information detailing the constructive service you receive in Tremont. Post photos.

We know TWDC does many good things--it's hands down the best CDC in town, when it comes to marketing the neighborhood. This is a very real achievement and I wish I could see the same level of marketing from my own CDC. Go ahead. Tell us good things. Praise the people who get stuff done. I am not feeling it here in my neck of the woods, but if you want to defend and give credit where credit is due, it can only help all of us.
(BTW, I am home at lunch enjoying a grilled cheese and apple sandwich--more than you wanted to know).

I would like the neighborhood to request TWDC to make a public statement regarding the situation around Frank's House. It needs to be asked for in a climate of civility very directly to the Board who would hopefully get it printed in a neutral forum and then discussed and treated with respect. I say neutral but that's difficult...the Plain Press should be the place but that's not neutral. That house is gone and now what happens next? Are there others in the neighborhood facing the same aspect. People need to know. If it comes to the point that it can be agreed that a terrible mistake was made then the climate regarding the conflict has to be good enough that the infringing party can step up and work on correcting the situation. This is separate from legal wrongdoing. The legal battle is for Frank and the uphill battle he needs to take on in finding the legal resources to defend himself and seek damages might need a community bump but then it's his private affair. All those sensitive details that people might be bantering about should become private matter (Frank's and his legal representatives), provided that Frank has the ability to acquire good legal help. Once that starts it would be nice if much of this nasty stuff and all its rumors stayed a private matter until somehow settled. If Frank is able to get a judgement and it is against TWDC then Frank literally need a strong TWDC in good fiscal order with a Board willing to deal with the issue of whether or not to pay the judgement. Typically they go bust or push it into appeal, that is their legal right but it involves brutal politics. It would be nice if TWDC was strong enough as a neighborhood entity to not need to go that route.

The neighborhood however, has to deal with a different aspect of what was done and I do think they are quite separate things. I do have an idea for a community project around this, but I haven't been able to approach Frank on it. If he is receptive and agrees then I will submit it here for others to think about as to whether they might be getting involved.

I can't see anything in this post that should be a flame war issue. I think the flame war should continue however cause the back of the GANG OF FOUR malcontents is gonna need to get broken, otherwise they will just continue bullying and causing people trouble.

MMMM!  Grilled cheese and apple sandwich... that sounds like something that should be on my meal plans from here on out...!!!

As for Glowbawl's comments, in no particular order:

> I'm not advocating anyone jeopardize their safety.  If you feel threatened, online or in person, take appropriate action with the authorities.

>  I'm also not calling out any specific person - yourself included.  I was generally stating that more often than not folks who have anonymous opinion posts go farther than they would in person - or if their name were attached to the opinion.  I also was speaking genrally about sites - check out the Fox 8 posts... AWFUL!!  I've watched this online trend grow exponentially over the past 10+ years.  It's humanity I'm speaking of...

> I am appallad by some of the things I read on the circles I travel in/on the internet, hence my post.  I'm also appalled that these posts can drive people away or cripple/end a resource.  These forums are great for our voices and collaboration and debate.  But, I've watched many fizzle/die over the years from overwhelming negativity or flat out brawling..  again... humanity.

> I do understand the need or practicality of anonymouse userids.  I have one that is non-gender specific for posting for sale items on line.  I was stalked once by a local ebay-er back in the day because I used my, obviously female, userid. 

> However, I prefer to put my name next to what I say.  Not only does it lend credibility, if we meet outside the virtual world, you know who I am and we can talk or constructively argue more about it and include facial expressions, gestures, and inflections you don't get online, which may enhance communication.  There is also a lot of sarcasm that gets passed around and unless you know the person in real life, you not only miss the sarcasm - - it can be taken the wrong way.

> In the years I've been in Tremont, I've seen lots of stuff, but I have not heard of or witnessed any of the four people you mention physically hurting anyone.

> And yes, I have been persecuted for my opinions by those who don't share the same ground rules as me.   I've lost property, been stalked, robbed, assaulted, brandished with a weapon, intimidated.. and the two best.. had a 30 yard dumpsters worth of trash dumped in my drive and was assaulted with a hammer - all because I disagreed with two people.   And that just covers the last four years. 

ok Des thanks for your comment, you are appalled and concerned by frightening stuff on the internet...I accept that and nod my head in agreement. But what about this stuff right here? You have intermittedly posted with what I have taken to be lukewarm support for these folks in the GANG OF FOUR. So I assume you've read everything thru. You've said you know these people, so I assume you can ask them about what they think they are doing. But I can't recall you posting anything that rebukes their actions in the manner that matches the overall scarry concerns in your post above. You've used these examples as leverage my actions, ok fine I don't think they relate. Now I am using your own statements as consideration to have against the GANG OF FOUR actions. I think your concerns would be much better if you reflected them on the actions of the GANG OF FOUR than on anything I've done or the positions I have taken.

You ask me if I have gone to the authorities I can state that I have, Guy can confirm this. Literally the police officers on the scene told Guy that he'd better get out of his sight or he'd throw his butt in jail. What did Guy do? The next night he was right out there, doing the same thing. My assumption is that the next time me and Guy cross paths he's gonna go right back at me. He's literally delusional in his anger towards me and the fact that the cop spelled it out for him in a manner that he should be able to understand doesn't mean anything to him. It's funny listening to your words of support...."I have not heard of or witnessed any of the four people you mention physically hurting anyone." I'm even betting you have heard about some of this stuff and have done nothing.

Further there's obviously going to be a court situation with debra, given that there are witnesses and the way the police report is summarized, I would think she's gonna have quite a struggle to get around that. It reads as an assault, who knows it might have a stiff sentance. I would think she would still be even pressing ahead with any of this, instead she still persists. Her behavior isn't much different than Guy's. I must use a quote of her's that at the time she used it on the Tremonter, I didn't understand, but I think I do now..."Negative is as negative does"

So that's half the gang of four right there...does this need go any further? To me this is all pretty serious on the internet and right in the neighborhood. Yet within your concerns it didn't get mentioned. You say you never heard of any of it. You certainly don't put forth an attitude that it should stop. Instead you put down paragraphs about how we should reform the internet so it can be a better place. Gimme a friggin break. If you want I can start refering to this as a GANG OF FIVE.

You state you have been a victim of quite a few criminal acts, I'm sorry and hope you don't suffer further setbacks. But I go back to the implication that if you are going to underscore your own woes in the neighborhood, what do you say about this particular scenario that's in process both here on the internet and right in Tremont? And you've been involved directly with it.

Within my flame war posts participation, I have been focused on one thing...this being real neo, then just how Real is this? I think it is becoming more and more a neighborhood scam.

Frankly, Glowbawl, I'm a little tired of this name calling.... You have characterized my posts (as part of your “Gang of Four”) as: 
"a very distinct and meanspirited (sic) bullying pathology"
and
"bullying and blatant dragging of people's names thru the mud"

Yet I think I purposefully try not to do any of those things. So, I went back and found the seemingly "meanest" quotes of all my posts on RealNEO (you claim our meaness has transferred here). Please tell me which parts fit your above descriptions? I'm confused. Here are my various comments:
"its also a crime when you hide income generated by your business (City Buddha), isnt it Larry?"

"But for Mr. Cook to frame it as though it was a TWDC initiative is simply dishonest. When someone is dishonest, you naturally tend to not believe them."

"now who's getting nasty??? and making personal attacks???" 

"where's glowbawl for your spankings....?"

"I'd like to add that TWDC and its board has a habit of not answering questions with straight answers. They also run around issues that seemingly run counter to their positions. Their lack of resident assistance programs is a good example; their failure to elicit or accept monitors after years of raised question about their voting procedures is another - and there are more. Once or twice, ok - but after awhile people just get frustrated and no longer want to give them the benefit of the doubt."

"Tremont West Development Corporation has announced they have secured representatives of the Cleveland State University Maxine Goodman Levin College of Urban Affiars to monitor the election Thursday night." 

"This is great news - congratulations you guys for pushing for this to happen!"

"Its pretty well documented that the decade long harassment and final demolition was an act of the politcal elite of this town with our councilperson, Joe Cimperman, as their soldier boy. It may be a tough time finding anyone to risk professional suicide and take up the torch. However, if the suits being filed against TWDC et al are any indication there may be something bigger than just Frank."

"just FYI - neither a true pagan nor true artist would ever destroy - it would be antithetical to our beliefs. Cimperman on the other hand is quite obviously neither a pagan nor an artist..."

"no mention is made of the personal gain many have made with the funding of our tax dollars and at the expense of needy neighbors, for whom the money is intended." 

"so we have all these bright cheeked boys and girls with their little diplomas and presumed knowledge, eager to get hired by a CDC so they can work to "power to the people". no one bothers to scratch the surface and see what is really happening - they dont want to know."

"and now you have a level of actual dishonesty the heads of these units are using to cover their tracks when pissed off residents are starting to make some headway in proving their point that the CDCs are rotten to the core"

So thats it, glowbawl. Where do you get yOUr accusations. Something tells me you have a fondness for accusations. I'm tired of having MY name dragged through the mud.

BULLY : A person who hurts, frightens, threatens or tyrannizes over those who are smaller or weaker.

ACTIVIST:  Individual who favors, incites or demands intensified activities.

TERMINATOR: One who or that which terminates.

I have never once physically threatened anyone and all those that really know me know that I'm a lover not a fighter but I am truly passionate about what I believe in and I believe in fighting for those in this neighborhood who are being bullied by the system.  If that means I have to yell a little, disagree, defy and/or put up some resistance, so be it. 

If one voice stands up, then a second, a third, a fouth, a fifth and so on, before long, we have enough to fight the system and that my friend is how wars are won.  Believe me, our line is getting longer.

By the way Des, how did your hearing go today?  Did you get a satisfactory outcome?  Don't forget, I still have a file and am still researching data for you case on a different level.  I'm checking into how many search warrants Judge Pianka signed last year and comparing how many were for properties in this area to how many were for properties in other areas.  I also have a lady who lives in the Stockyard area who contacted me with a similar situation so I'm going to be compiling  info for a story for the Plain Press that will come out in a couple of months. 

Right now we have to find a way to get to the funders of these organizations.  Cleveland Foundation, NPI and the Gund Foundation are the main money channels into the communities - where there's a money stream you'll find greed and that's the root of the problem.

*