Does Kate earn royalties from Star Trek? Warp speed out of Cleveland?

The county does have a $16M surplus for 2009.

What and why does the county want to consolidate? It’s a game to cut operating costs while maintaining service levels. Doing so is well received by the Bond Rating companies. They are using a methods like IPD integrated policy development,

Based upon principles of Optimization, Leverage, Synergy and Incentives (OLSI), the IPD process promotes, evaluates and measures program performance and outcomes across departmental boundaries. Our major goal is to provide citizens with mandated and other necessary services in an equitable, high-quality, efficient, productive and strategic manner. IPD is designed to provide the Cuyahoga County Commissioners and their administrators with decision-making tools for the continual improvement and innovation of county programs and systems.

You can go over the 2009 Budget if you like on line, it is 519 pages though, not exactly a suspense novel but going over it and understanding it is good form, I would say. It could help with the maybe possibly and some think dialogue, that being get rid of it.

Getting a hotel on that corner is all relative to the success of the convention facility and the only way to get anything back is hotels, the income taxes of the employees and the sales taxes of tourists. If they get something for the building then it would offset the cost of construction of the new county administration building. Which I personally would like to be the new regional government administration building.

The Euclid site is on hold, K&D is busy with converting an abandoned departments store to apartments.

668 Euclid:

The county backed off the Brueuer and K&D is on hold, it could happen if the banks are willing to back it. If K&D is in a position to do it. They also need a major tenant and hotel to make it happen. They have a very good concept for the reuse of the tower and many on this site wanted that.

Hey I worked at the Marriot while going to school at CSU, I worked with a staff of 60 employees, I used to ask them did you get screwed by this project? All of them said, nope I got a job, not a great jobs but at least I have one. We all liked working in the city and many of us enjoy new construction particularly if it brings dead areas back to life.

Hagan is just like Bush? 

Dear Oengus:

 I seem to remember that the Marriott has paid no property taxes since it was constructed; it got a $10-million interest-free loan, principal not due for 20 years. How would you like that on your house? 

Gateway has cost the County from its GENERAL FUND more than $100 million for bonds the County let; County tax payers contributed something like $240 million via the sin taxes; the city built two garages upon which it believes it will lose more than $70 million; RTA built a walkway for $13 million from local funds; the sin tax has continued for the Browns stadium for another $50 million plus and still being collected; the city gives extra city police for stadium and arena events; can't estimate how much road improvements and signage cost but surely something.

I'm happy that you got part-time employment while going to school and that others got low wage jobs at the Marriott but I don't believe the public cost justifies those jobs.  Might as well be hired by the County at good wages with the money that was spent, much of it for Dick Jacobs.

Prime suspect: Tim Hagan.

The tower was built what in 1991? What will the tax be in two more years? If it was abated for twenty? What would the property taxes be on all the Public Housing? Whose kids need the education? Hagan did not create the system, I admit its a dumb system, but Hagan is not the begining or the end of it.

Use the money to hire more county workers? NO! We need less not more government. Bureaus are not as entertaining as world class sport and entertainment venues.

I was full-time and in management, and met allot of people from Albany that moved here. They all paid taxes, both property and income. But most did not live in the city.

Not everyone can have high paying jobs, the inflation would be outrageous. Most of or citizens are not qualified for high paying jobs.   Sad succsess does not come easy, did bussing work? 

Destroying Hagan will not save Cleveland, the man has said take my job repeatedly. So were is his replacement? Then what is the plan? Who, What and How? Not shoot the man at the top, to easy of target.  His worse opponent is not even running for office, I feel for him. 

Some things I agree with some I do not, but disagreeable as a theme? I am not feeling that.

Good points Oengus. 

"Destroying Hagan will not save Cleveland, the man has said take my job repeatedly. So were is his replacement? Then what is the plan? Who, What and How?"

I have a theory that the more obnoxious, ignorant, and corrupt a candidate is, the less interest there will be to run against that candidate.  In essence, you make the job so despicable no one wants to be associated with it.

What are other explanations for why no one ran against Hagan?

ps nice church photos!

Please, save your tears for Tim Hagan.

With establishment backing he ran against fellow Democrat Tim McCormack in order to get McCormack, who had serious doubts about the Convention Center, out of the way. He has rewarded the establishment well with the $1 billion plus for the Med Mart and Convention Center.

The abatements cost various levels of government considerably. It has nothing to do with public housing. This was private housing. And it cost us plenty.

I don't have current figures but the Society Center (now Key Bank and Marriott Hotel) in 1996 had $7,931,710 in property taxes were abated, $4,957,319  taken from Cleveland schools; in 1997, $8,196,649 was tax free, $5,114,709 from the Cleveland schools; in 1998, $8,387,103 was abated, $5,116,133 from the schools.

You can extrapolate from that to how much  tax revenue was diverted from the schools, county, city of Cleveland and Cleveland libraries  over 20 years. And let me tell you that the owners will be looking to reduce tax value of those building. In fact, since taxes are paid on the land, Jacobs already had asked for reductions in value.

Please, don't cry for Dick Jacobs or Tim Hagan.

Further, and mostly thanks to Hagan and Mayor White, at Gateway the taxes abated (actually exempted, meaning they will NEVER pay property taxes) for those same years was $8.4 million to $8.6 million annually with $5.2 million each year from the Cleveland school system.

So getting rid of people like Hagan could teach us that some people just have to go as an example of what we won't tolerate.

I think that is his personality? Keep in mind that smiling faces do tell lies. So the most charming and personable could have much more to hide.

In this scenario all that is happening is that the convention center is getting redeveloped and we are paying to do it all of us. It is not that all are against that, it is that we all did not get a say so in the matter? He should get his power checked, but I do want the convention center redeveloped and have for years.

I see it as real world cost functions and the bigger they get the more infeasible they become. Not afraid of offending some gets the job done, appeasing everyone defaults in gridlock, nothing happens.

Schools are funded by property taxes, so for any section of land the sum of that tax needs to meet the cost of the operating of the schools. Home owners pay for the education of the children, then so do landlords. But the percentages, the more you improve the land the more you pay. Is that an incentive to improve the use of the land?

Find any multi-unit property and do the math, the costs often exceed the potential revenue. That's a business that provides housing. The taxes are higher on Multi-units in some areas? Why is it? It is not a concern that they are sometimes negative cash flows, they all are. The only people that own these are legacy wealth, they bought them when they were positive and have held them. Then the municipalities tax them into unmarketable, those that have equity have to give it up to liquidate them. The real value is so low it would be a shock to many if they looked closer.  

Did the convention center as it is make money? Nope at best it broke even and in so provided some with income. We are they are doing nothing but attempting to increase the scope of that. Doing it to increase the scale and attempt to catalysis other interests in the city.

We know what things cost the rebuilding of that facility is ridiculously expensive, and the potential for profit minimal so who pays for it? We all do, the risk is on all of us, if the law that allows commissioners to raise taxes for what ever they see fit is so wrong, then why is that not the issue? I believe that they could raise it again if they want, we are not yet at the limit.

If its open and operating then there is industry, there is commerce. But the function are not so clear, the money in and the money out, not so clear. Particularly the externalities.

The county is building a new Juvenile Justice center and still has a $16M surplus, it is bankrolling $43M each year and again with a $16M surplus. It is pending more and also cutting its cost, if anything that’s more like Obama then Bush.

Is it the politicians that are creating reputations or is it the press? Looking for the negative angle?

What was in Jane Campbell said, An amazing number of nay sayers?

When investigations of wrong doing happen, and this commission is under a bright light it's a matter of money changing hands. The cost have to be within ranges, not outside of the average or historical costs. It is not so much of who gets the funds it is a matter of the exchange, what was paid and what was done.

The Bruerer stopped because building an administration office building cannot cost that much! It got thrown around and the site was too expensive and not justifiable as other options do exist and they were forced to take one. That leads to level two scenario, how to make the infeasible work for the second party that would like to make the change happen.

The poor and struggling need something other then negativity, they really just want work. Believe it or not some are happy to get the job cleaning the rooms in a hotel, and they really get pissed when nothing happens. When the now hiring sign goes up the lines will form, its something.

I do not want a different county commissioner, I want new government that is regional and totally different.

If you take it all into consideration it is about totals, the land and the totals as it was and then the land and the totals after. Often higher use shifts the tax from property to income. An abandoned building or underutilized building does not have significant income tax related to it. Higher uses have higher rates, I am not a fan of full abatement, but it is a product of a overwhelming disrespect for real costs and feasibilities.

Are we approaching the end of the towers abatement? It was built in 1991 and in two years does the city get $5M a year out of that property?

If it is a municipal owned complex it pays no taxes, its a matter of money in and money out. If it is taxed would it exist? Then if it is municipally operated is it efficient? It’s not a perfect world is it.

Why talks about Michael White talk about Carl Stokes or Ralph Perk, If anyone moved the city forward it was White and he got ran out of town for sidestepping the process which is broken. We all need to be involved regardless to whether we even know what the hell we are talking about? Seriously plan “B” does not exist, not within those that have control. The majority of the population is clueless, people that cannot calculate a percentage told to be upset on cue.

How often has the take it or leave it approach ever been beaten? Never by cry baby bullshiters ever, you piss off the people with money they leave the room. You think that all that you find so offensive has no value, the Quicken arena or Progressive field, the brown stadium? Other disagree it is the world we live in, could be different but it is not.

I see more taxing to death then free giveaways, actually one feeds the other.  We are on that cycle like it or not, they should have abatement levels that cannot be exceeded, wehn one comes off another comes on.   Do sports facilites make money?  Don't assume. 

Why not just have everyone give their paycheck to the Dick Jacobses of the world? That would satisfy them more than not having to pay property taxes. More than having stadiums, arenas and parking garages built for them.

Just give them everything.

We see how well that has worked for Cleveland.

Onegus, you totally ignored the figures I provided. Stop being an apologist for these people who serve wealth and not all people with justice.

 my tongue was getting bitten to pieces.