Submitted by Roldo on Mon, 10/19/2009 - 19:49.

The Pee Dee has become totally shameless in its promotion of Issue 6 and County “reform.” Totally shameless. News has become propaganda. Again.


The front-page story Monday said that voting for Issue 6 would be “costly to 4 elected Cuyahoga officials.” It’s the top story of the day.


Yeah, let’s get ‘em!


The Issue 6 campaign should have to list the Pee Dee for in-kind contributions. It’s that bad.


The Pee Dee story starts by telling us that four elected officials – Commissioners Peter Lawson Jones, Tim Hagan, Treasurer Jim Rokakis and Recorder Lillian Greene – will lose their jobs if Issue 6 passes. All four oppose Issue 6, of course.


They will lose $700,000 in pay. Jones and Hagan nearly each $185,000, says the Pee Dee, and Rokakis $190,000 (two-and-a-half years) and Greene two-years, $149,000. That’s the way the Pee Dee figures it.


What the Pee Dee doesn’t figure at all, however, is what the cost will be under the new system.


Issue 6 also calls for a County Executive who will have to be paid. Likely he or she will have to get something in the range of $200,000. Maybe more.


The measure also calls – instead of the three Commissioners - for 11 new positions as what they call council members. Ten are scheduled to get $45,000 each. That will mean a payroll addition of $450,000 a year. One – the president of the council – gets $55,000 a year. Expect those salaries to go up quickly near what Cleveland Council members get, about $70,000.


Isn’t that more than $700,000 for any single year? My adding machine says $450,000 plus $55,000, plus $200,000 equals $705,000. A year, that is. Without pay increase that surely will come.


That also doesn’t factor in any staff. My bet is that all 11 members – I’d call them all County Commissioners – will want at minimum at least one staff member and other staffing.


And don’t forget expense accounts for each of the 11 offices.


 If money is the issue, we already are outspending the old line-up. Significantly.


Besides setting up a situation with 11 districts fighting each other.


I suspect the Pee Dee, however, is looking for the public to be out to “punish” someone in County government. Who hasn’t gotten sickened by the corruption there?


That’s the Pee Dee impetus - to entice voters to take out their frustrations on someone by voting “yes” on Issue 6. But do you do this to spite yourselves?


We will have – instead of three Commission honchos – 11 district County leaders plus the County executive. One can see power struggles already.


It’s a setup not unlike Cleveland City Council.


And we know how well that works. Don’t we?




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Roldo rocks

Speaking the truth once again. People get confused by all the stuff that is thrown at them, but I think that this is part of the political game and how the  powers play it so that they win.

The concept of regionalism has been tossed around and studied for a while now. I heard David Abbot address it 2 years ago, and heard him say that this was a bad idea. Now it is being touted as the solution to corruption.

Issue 6



Let's take this for what it is - clearly you are opposed to Issue 6, I'm guessing that it's because it was not an "open and inclusive" process (which has been disproved depending on who you listen to and believe).  However, to say that there will increased costs is misleading (perhaps just as much as you claim the PD is being misleading).  Currently, we have people performing jobs that they are simply not trained to perform - such as many of our financially related positions - elected and appointed.  However, the new charter requires these consolidated positions be filled by someone with a financial background - most likely a CPA.  Having these skills will help find inefficiencies and waste that exist within our government - waste that has led to diminished social services, a lack of representational faithfulness to the taxpayer via corruption and a myriad of other problems.  Bringing professionals into our government will certainly held reduce the cost for the taxpayer - not increase it.


This is just one of the many cost savings methods that can be gained from making our government more efficient and competitive in a continuously smaller world, where we compete with not just the likes of Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Columbus - but Brazil, Russia, India and China.


I would be interested to hear what your specific reasoning is against Issue 6 - other than the PD propaganda, elitist, and big-business interests argument.  Do you truly think that Ohio and the commissioner form of government is an effective means of running a county? 




 I realize that you posted to Roldo but can you tell me how you came up with the foundation of your first paragraph? Specifics would be greatly appreciated on the reasoning of how having a CPA that will lead to reduced inefficiencies and waste as I am having some problems with the generalizations on such an important topic. 

puddle from poodle.




Not just professional accountants and those with strong backgrounds in public finance, but also those with backgrounds in technology and the use of technology in process driven environments. Consider Kevin Kelly and his qualifications for upper level technology management. Then who selected him and then who voted that person into office and who were they ultimately accountable to…we had to get the FBI to hold them to accountability.

The change needs to come with greater accountancy and that’s the purpose of the district representation. Those part time representative you vote for will be accountable to you and for what and how the county spends it resources.

Can the alternative save…certainly it can it will have to operate within a budget and could line up with hard times on the horizon…then some may say see I told you they are more expensive, when they may not be, the next county budget may come up short with the same old or new alternative.

Its all rudimentary the PD and the review, as in depth as a puddle from a poodle.

Kelly is a small part of our regional GIS problem

I am especially interested in the use, misuse and lack of good use of GIS in this region, by the County, surrounding counties, area cities, and other branches and departments of government, to the Federal level, and the universities, and paid research organizations, as it seems we as a region are investing in many proprietary GIS solutions that are not implemented in ways to provide much value to anyone. I believe that is done with intent, as good use of GIS would lead to smart development, real environmentalism, and a complete restructuring of priorities in the region, leading to transformartion of our economy, at 1/10th the cost and resources use of the current model.

Kelly is a small part of our regional GIS problem, which the FBI may explore, but the bigger issues are outside their jurisdiction. Our problems with GIS are subtle and strategic - we need a fresh start.

That fresh start approach to GIS is core to our initiative for transforming the regional economy with coop local foods and info, and open source, of course.

Disrupt IT

I totally agree


I totally agree…

Why not parcel overlays on the satellite images? That’s about polygons and linked data tables. Its the main reason for districts to me as for comparative and competitive metrics and then related allocations of funds.

Yes Norman, a subset of parcels and related tables, designated to food production. The GIS is just a map with coordinates linked to a relational table. Click on the area and the data table opens.

Each parcel has relative metrics, in the food cooperative you would have production numbers. Then inputs and outputs relative values. Each could also have contracts and commitments to quality as well.

Opening a map could define all of them, identifying the potential sites within the land bank.

Some information public and some private, certain information password protected. A parcel could have its own html address assigned, commercial parcels could open a web site.

Its so obvious to me….

What is it they own the right to? Have they made custom apps? In what?

You know if I use somebody else’s credit card at Amazon they call them…that’s linked in. Nothing we are doing is linked in and it all should be, we have the bandwidth and the storage, bet what they create is awkward and cumbersome.

Over the satellite image should also be CAD diagrams, for the sewers, the water and the electric and communication grids. Then address that in real-time with tables that link into smart meters.

So you could look at your network and then tally its energy consumption, then ask how can we reduce that and even reduce our costs making us more sustainable. Sustainability is a function of efficiency, efficiency approaches or lower the meeting of the lines. The breakeven, it can be shifted down.   But you have to be able to see it, we quess at to much. 

If we can't keep 3

If we can't keep 3 commissioners honest how in the heck do we think we can keep 11 people accountable?  Now is not a good time to change the entire system.  Let's clean up the mess first and see what we have and then think about making major changes to the system. 


They want to consolidate the function of the Auditor, Recorder and Treasurer. That’s what I see in the proposal. I agree and thats because I see that they are all related and can be monitored and administered through a common process and related information systems.

Having what is it eleven district representatives that all would have access to that information.

What they do and how they do it riddled with conflicts of interests, and those links and associations are something that needs to be looked at closely.

I personally believe that government contracts should be non-profit and if the private sector has no activity then these are sure things to keep men and woman working. But making profit on government is inherently counter productive. So is taxing government employees, so is paying them above market wages. So is having government benefit programs it undermines the private sector.

The only recourse I can see is that of cooperatives, sneaking under the line and to undercut costs at all levels. Demanding better for less, local and even community based. That gets rid of the ‘what do I care I do not live here’ assholes, that’s who is building in the CDC’s that’s why you have these inferior over priced housing projects.

To many players and to many degrees of separation, its just a neighbor hood live in it and work in it. I think we can do better than the Europeans, we need the common structures and to use the technology to see it but much of it needs to exit in the free market and unregulated, but pulling down cost is really the way to do it. Making profit in hard times is incorrigible, it really is.

Gaining jobs and reducing unemployment is doing work and for low wages, then considering the options to do more and earn more by adding value to your self’s that can be seen, its real experience and augmented with education. Being examples and then answering the how and why to those surrounding you, with conviction.

Propaganda as news

Roldo--did you happen to notice that the PD has finally decided to play the new media* game by allowing commentators to have access to their content? 

However at the site, commentators can not delete the content or modify it.  They can just track their content or "follow" certain writers and commentators.  

It is certainly an interesting time to find information in America.  How do we determine the credibility, veracity and motive of anything we read? 

 *Credit should go here to Norm Roulet for recognizing this media, BEFORE the media...but that will never happen :)

my opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer, my spouse, my cat, my neighbors, my extended family or anyone I happen to acknowledge on the street, bus, etc. use of social computing is a bust

I'm not going to explain the many reasons why use of social computing is a bust, as I'm sick of trying to help that ungrateful and now unworthy organization - just expect the Plain Dealer and to fail further over the next few years. They will only be saved through completely new leadership - probably through new ownership, first. Prepare to buy The PD, real NEO - the coop will own the presses.

Don't waste your time posting there - boycott their virtual and real worlds... troll them to monitor them and bring the analyses here to the real community.

Disrupt IT

To CTB: To say that there


To say that there will not  be increased costs is misleading, as you say, is incorrect. I think I totaled up how the costs could be higher.

You seem to take for granted that the new system would be less corrupt, less political. One of the reasons I see this as a wrong move is that I see the good possibility that it will be more political and possibly more opportunity for corruption. Having 11 politicians around the county as "commissioners" will bring its own political demands for patronage.

I also believe that it will greatly increase the power of Bill Mason and I don't see that as progressive but as likely making a king-maker of a very political guy. He's willing to go along with this move that will allow a few Republicans to gain an office but not enough to change his power position.

There is little doubt that the three offices - treasurer, auditor and recorder - could be consolidated for more efficiency and less opportunity for patronage abuses.

The issue of Republicans not being able to get elected in Cuyahoga County is somewhat disputed by the fact that politicians as Perk, Voinovich and even Virgil Brown, first African-American elected a Cuyahoga County commissioner. Republicans need better political candidates.

Yes, we need better, more efficient people in government. But changing from the present form to the Issue 6 form doesn't insure that at all.

As to the Pee Dee I thought it has been over-reaching in its desire to push Issue 6.

I don't like Issue 5 either because I sense it could be simply a dodge if enacted. But I do sense that public opinion is so strong that those named to study and report will be under strong pressure to do it right. Not that it won't be political either.


Eliminate shadow government...

Despite, the allure as Roldo, points out:

There is little doubt that the three offices - treasurer, auditor and recorder - could be consolidated for more efficiency and less opportunity for patronage abuses.

I am voting NO to Issue 6, and NO to Issue 5, because, I don't see how either ballot proposal will improve accountability. 

my opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer, my spouse, my cat, my neighbors, my extended family or anyone I happen to acknowledge on the street, bus, etc.

What is Good for the Community?

  Vote early, vote, vote, vote for accountability--a great show on WRUW's It's about Justice on 10/24/2009. Listen in:


Announcer and educator Meryl meet with Congressional District 13 representative Betty Sutton and Former Congressman Louis B. Stokes.  Talking about Cash for Clunkers, Healthcare Reform, the Employee Free Trade Act and Issue 5 versus Issue 6. 

PLEASE--at the very least VOTE  NO on Issue 6---we don't need to instill more power in government without accountability!



my opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer, my spouse, my cat, my neighbors, my extended family or anyone I happen to acknowledge on the street, bus, etc.